Molly Mattocks (1s):
And I really didn’t know this either until Izzy died. I mean I. think we look at grief as the season of getting over loss and it’s just not. That’s not it at all. It’s a season of getting used to loss. So we tend to think that grief is something that once we go through, we’re gonna recover and, we’re gonna go back to the way we were before, but there’s never a going back to the way we were before. I think anyone that has lost someone deeply would agree that you’re the person that you were when they’re alive, and then you’re the person that you were after they died, And. so I just think it’s so empowering to see it like that and to frame it like that and to give yourself permission to be this new version of you.
Molly Mattocks (44s):
This isn’t a gloom and doom sentence. This is permission to be the new version of you. This version of you that will always carry loss.
Announcer (54s):
Welcome to Difficult Conversations Lessons I learned as an ICU Physician with Dr. Anthony Orsini. Dr. Orsini is a practicing physician and president and CEO of The Orsini Way. As a frequent keynote speaker and author, Dr. Orsini has been training healthcare professionals and business leaders how to navigate through the most difficult dialogues. Each week you will hear inspiring interviews with experts in their field who tell their story and provide practical advice on how to effectively communicate. Whether you are a doctor faced with giving a patient bad news, a business leader who wants to get the most out of his or her team members, or someone who just wants to learn to communicate better this is the podcast for you.
Liz Poret-Christ (1m 40s):
Welcome to a special episode of Difficult Conversations: Lessons I learned as an ICU Physician. This is not Dr. Anthony Orsini. This is Liz Poret-Christ, Managing Director of the Orsini Way, and I will be your host this week. Today I have this special privilege of introducing you to Molly Mattocks. Molly is a writer and end of life grief coach from Nobles, Indiana. She’s an associate pastor for nearly a decade before becoming a full-time caregiver to her three-year-old daughter Izzy, who is diagnosed with neuroblastoma. Molly helped Izzy live for nearly a decade until she finally helped her die in April of 2021. Molly is now dedicated to helping shift the cultural narrative around death because she believes our ability to embrace death is intricately woven into our ability to embrace life.
Liz Poret-Christ (2m 31s):
Dr. Orsini and I have had many conversations on this show about the importance of end of life discussions with amazing guests like BJ Miller and Hospice Nurse Julie. Although incredibly sad and often uncomfortable, we agree with Molly that the conversation about our successful ability to transition out of this world is deeply connected to how we exist in this one I was first introduced to Molly when I came across her Instagram page, Letters on Living After Loss. In the insightful, heartbreaking, and inspiring letters that Molly writes to Izzy We see the indescribable heartbreak of a grieving mom trying to learn how to live without her daughter.
Liz Poret-Christ (3m 13s):
It is a tale no parent should have to tell, but sadly, one that many do. According to the American Cancer Society, roughly 10,000 children will be diagnosed with cancer this year. Molly’s Instagram page is a tribute to her beautiful daughter and a heartbreaking window into her soul. Talking about living with profound grief in ways that anyone can understand and her unique perspective has made me look at my own grief in a completely different way. I check Molly’s page almost daily and was inspired to reach out and ask her to be on the show. I’m so glad that she said yes, because I’m amazed by her grace and her strength, and I believe our audience will be better for knowing her just like I have been.
Liz Poret-Christ (3m 54s):
Welcome to the show, Molly.
Molly Mattocks (3m 57s):
Hi.
Liz Poret-Christ (3m 58s):
So glad to have you here. So every show, we ask our guests to tell us a little bit about themselves so the audience can get to know you better. Tell us a little bit about you and how you got here.
Molly Mattocks (4m 8s):
Yeah, so I’m a mom. I live in central Indiana, And, have two kids. I have a son, he’s almost 17. And then my daughter Izzy died just over two years ago. So Izzy was sick with cancer for about nine years. I viewed as the fight, she was sick for 10 years, so nine years I kind of viewed as our fight. And the last year I kind of viewed it as our surrender And. so walking that last year with her really just changed my whole perspective on death and on life really. And after she died, I started writing about it online. So I started writing her letters every day. The first letter I wrote was I think two days after she died.
Molly Mattocks (4m 50s):
And then I just wrote my last letter in March And. so there are 365 in total, so I’m gonna publish them. I’m all excited soon
Liz Poret-Christ (4m 60s):
Before we get to the letters and they’re incredible, and I encourage everyone to log into Molly’s Instagram to read them. It’ll really change your life. Can you tell us a little bit about Izzy?
Molly Mattocks (5m 12s):
Yeah. Izzy was full of energy and passion. So she loved the things that she loved and she hated the things that she hated. She truly just was almost like a sponge. Some of my family has described her as she soaked up everything in this life. So she loved animals, cats were her favorite, but really all animals. She loved being outside. She loved being active and hiking, and she was just a lover of nature really.
Liz Poret-Christ (5m 44s):
And talk to me about the letters. What made you think to start writing them and what made you decide to put them on social media?
Molly Mattocks (5m 53s):
You know what I found during most of our cancer journey, I had originally Caring Bridge, and that didn’t last very long for me, And. so I ended up doing a blog and then I shifted to social media when this became more a more permanent part of our life. But I found that writing and just posting after we would have appointments or scans really allowed me to kind of take everything that we’ve been given and just kind of organize it and make sense of it and process it and then set it aside. And so my regular posting I found was just really a healthy coping mechanism for me, and I didn’t know what to do after she died, And. so I wrote her a letter in my journal on that first day.
Molly Mattocks (6m 37s):
And then the next day, I don’t know, I didn’t know what to say to my followers online. I felt like I should say something And. so I just thought, what if I just wrote a letter out here? Yeah, it was just incredible. Then afterwards, the way people began to gravitate to them and then as they began to gravitate and as they began to say I was articulating things that they felt that they didn’t know how to say about their own loss, it just became this very beautiful reciprocal process where through my writing, I was, grieving I was, processing my loss, figuring out all of these hard things and I was providing the same thing for other people as well.
Liz Poret-Christ (7m 19s):
What was something that you learned about yourself through this process of being so upfront and honest about your grief for the world to see that you may not have thought of before?
Molly Mattocks (7m 31s):
There’s a quote that I’ve read that’s about suffering, but I have kind of adapted it to grief, and that’s I think deep loss increases our capacity, So, it increases what we’re able to hold, but it decreases our tolerance. So, it decreases what we’re willing to hold. And so I think initially, up until Izzy died, there was this huge part of me is in most people that cares what other people think. you know greatly. Yeah. And I think in losing Izzy, I just all of a sudden I didn’t care anymore. I if someone didn’t like what I was saying, or they were critical of my letters and that’s fine, whatever.
Molly Mattocks (8m 13s):
It literally just didn’t have a lasting impression on me. So yeah, I didn’t struggle with being out with my heart at all because I just didn’t care what anybody thought.
Liz Poret-Christ (8m 24s):
So I’ve been on this journey with you for a little while now, and I know you had initially transitioned to doing some coaching, but in our conversation just a few minutes ago, a new venture is coming up that I’m really excited for you to share with the audience. So why don’t you start with what made you think about going into coaching and then how this new position has evolved for you?
Molly Mattocks (8m 50s):
So from the letters and then the letters grew into this platform and this community online on Instagram. And then I began to connect with so many other people through grief and, so many other moms that were in the process of losing children. And they began asking me questions because part of what was really important to me in my letters was to say the things that everyone wants to say, but no one does. And so as I began to do that, then people felt like they could ask me questions, like just the really hard end of life questions. It started to be like a daily thing where I was messaging with multiple moms who are at end of life with their kids.
Molly Mattocks (9m 37s):
And I just started thinking like, maybe there’s something in this. Maybe there can be a space here where I can support people in a non-clinical way. And. so from that I just said, let’s just see what happens. So I’ll take on five coaching people and I had more than five that signed up and then it’s just kept going. I think, you know, I’m not a counselor. I look at myself more like a spiritual teacher, And. so to have a few sessions to just sit down with someone and help them hold the horribleness that they’re holding and help them find a way to carry it has just been a really beautiful thing, And. So I’ve just continued to explore more and more of what that could look like.
Liz Poret-Christ (10m 19s):
I think that’s amazing because in the work that we do at The Orsini Way, we always, when we’re training physicians or healthcare providers, we always have a layperson in the room to talk about what it’s like from that perspective. And I think for you to be able to articulate your pain in a way that is helpful to someone else going through their own pain without having to be clinical, without having to be medical I think is really a gift that a lot of people don’t possess. You put yourself in someone else’s shoes and especially if you’ve been there, it must be really hard to not only absorb their pain, but to keep kind of re-victimizing yourself.
Liz Poret-Christ (11m 2s):
But I think the way that you articulate yourself is probably helpful. It’s been helpful to me and I know it’s been helpful to so, so many. So talk to me about this new venture that you’re about to embark on, because that sounds really perfect for you.
Molly Mattocks (11m 17s):
You know, it’s been a little over two years now since Izzy died. So yeah, I waited until I got, after a year before I started any coaching, I started really slowly with that and then I told myself I just wanted to be cautious of that end of life space before I stepped into it too deeply. So earlier this month I started end of life doula training and then I just recently accepted a position as a hospice chaplain. And so my goal is to really pair those two things together and just sit in that sacred space with people before the end and then sit with caregivers after. So it’s kind of the coupling of like my ten years in ministry with my ten years as a caregiver.
Liz Poret-Christ (11m 59s):
That’s an amazing combination considering that when you sit in that space with caregivers after that’s a space that from a spiritual side you can understand, but from an emotional side you understand as well. And that I’m sure will be an incredible gift to your future families. But for people that don’t know, cuz I think a lot of people don’t know exactly what a death doula is. Can you share a little bit about what that is?
Molly Mattocks (12m 27s):
Yeah, so a death doula end of life doula is really just someone just like a birth doula that just supports someone through the dying process, starting as early as possible through planning what they want for the end and planning what they want for their legacy afterwards. And being sure that the moment of death I think it’s such a sacred transition. And, we tend to see that for birth, but we don’t see that for death. And I had that opportunity with Izzy to plan what she wanted and so to do that with a child, I realized like we all need that and if we talked about death more, we could all have better end of life experiences.
Molly Mattocks (13m 10s):
So I think a death doula is really there to advocate for a better end of life experience, recognizing that death is not just a medical event, spiritual event too.
Liz Poret-Christ (13m 21s):
I agree. And there’s been a very consistent theme in everyone that we’ve spoken to in this end of life space who’s on this journey to help people at the end of their lives that the process needs to start sooner. Healthcare professionals need to advise families that will be going through this transition sooner than later and not be afraid to have this conversation because in the end, it really does help to have a plan to know what’s next to know and all of those things And, we have to stop hiding from those conversations. So that’s something that Dr. Orsini and I are very passionate about. And like I said earlier, having guests on the show like Hospice Nurse Julie, and BJ Miller, and now the amazing Molly Mattocks, we can continue to keep having that conversation.
Liz Poret-Christ (14m 9s):
So if there was one thing, and I’m sure there’s 101 things or maybe 1,001 things that people should know about grief and living with grief, is there one thing in particular that stands out to you?
Molly Mattocks (14m 21s):
Yeah, and I really didn’t know this either until Izzy died. I mean I. think we look at grief as the season of getting over loss and it’s just not, that’s not it at all. It’s a season of getting used to loss. So we tend to think that grief is something that once we go through, we’re gonna recover And, we’re gonna go back to the way we were before, but there’s never a going back to the way we were before I, think anyone that has lost someone deeply would agree that you’re the person that you were when they’re alive and then you’re the person that you were after they died And. So I just think it’s so empowering to see it like that and to frame it like that and to give yourself permission to be this new version of you.
Molly Mattocks (15m 4s):
This isn’t a gloom and doom sentence, this is permission to be the new version of you, this version of you that will always carry loss.
Liz Poret-Christ (15m 14s):
I completely agree with you. I just recently lost a very dear friend and when I was talking to his wife about how to help their kids, that’s exactly what I said to her. I said, you have to realize that they’re a different person now. The person that they were before they lost their father is very different than the person that they are now. Personally, it’s been 27 years since I lost my father and I absolutely 27 years later, still agree with that statement wholeheartedly. I am a different person today than I was 27 years ago. And it’s not that you’re a better person or a worse person, you’re just a different person.
Liz Poret-Christ (15m 54s):
And learning how to live in that new space with those new feelings is something that talking about and being able to kind of confront only helps you moving forward and only helps you help people in your life that love you moving forward. So I was, hoping you were gonna say that because I’ve heard you say it before and it is perfect. So if we could turn back time, and I wish that we could, but if we could turn back time, what is something that you wish somebody had told you that you wish you knew then that you know now?
Molly Mattocks (16m 28s):
I wish I knew that we could live with this kind of pain because I think that’s what we’re also afraid of, right? The fear that I lived with for so many years, it’s still odd to me to think of how dominating that fear and anxiety was. And really it stole some of the years I had with Izzy because that fear of this was looming over me because I didn’t think I could survive. I didn’t think you could feel this kind of pain and keep living and you can And. so yeah, I wish I had known that. I wish I’d been able to receive that. Maybe somebody told me I wish I’d been able to receive that early on so that I could have been more present.
Liz Poret-Christ (17m 6s):
Yeah, I agree. We always ask our guests this question and sometimes we forget to tell them, but I did not forget to tell you, and I imagine you could answer this question in many ways. So I’m gonna ask you to share the way you’re most comfortable, but because the name of the show is Difficult Conversations, what type of conversation or specific conversation has been the most difficult for you and how did you get through it?
Molly Mattocks (17m 36s):
So I think the most difficult conversation I ever had was on take a second, was on May 6th, 2020. That’s when Izzy’s doctor and I had to tell her that she was dying and. we thought she was dying very soon. Her disease had spread ridiculously fast and she no longer qualified for the trial. We thought she was starting so, and I was really, really horrible. She had just turned 12 and yeah, it was all the things you can imagine. you know, a few days later we were able to get her started on the drug.
Molly Mattocks (18m 20s):
Anyways, And. so she went on to live till the following April, but in January the treatment we were having was just so hard on her body And, we were at the place where the treatment was really doing more damage than the cancer, you know? And that January of 2021, her doctor took me down the hall and just had an amazing conversation with me about the end, you know, and just said like, we’re getting close to the end and you can have some say in what this looks like if you make some choices. If you don’t, then it’s just going to go down like this and you’re gonna come in for a hospitalization and she’s not gonna go home.
Molly Mattocks (19m 2s):
you know, And. so if you want to shape what the end looks like, you, you guys can. And. so I, I went back to the, we talked for about an hour and then I went back to the hospital room and I told Izzy, you know, here’s the deal. You can I mean. I didn’t say it quite this frankly, but I said, you can basically live for maybe another year that you’d have to be in the hospital all the time like this, or we could leave the hospital right now and never come back, and you’d maybe have another couple months. And she sat up in bed and she was so excited and she smiled and she said, yes, I wanna do that. Please, can we leave?
Molly Mattocks (19m 44s):
And I said, but you know, and she said, I know what it means, And, we left and she died three months later, And. so that was, well that first conversation was difficult. That last conversation was difficult and also beautiful and amazing and gave her the end that she deserved and allowed her to have the end that she deserved to have. I couldn’t have had it with her, had her doctor not had a hard talk with me.
Liz Poret-Christ (20m 18s):
Thank you for sharing that. I can’t even begin to imagine how difficult that must have been. And you’ve talked to me about Dr. Weiss before And, we’re gonna shout him out because why not? Amazing doctors, doing amazing things. And do you feel that his ability to communicate with you in a way that was clear but compassionate, helped give you the strength to have that conversation with Izzy?
Molly Mattocks (20m 47s):
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean he gave me the words that I needed and the knowledge that I needed and also the compassion that I needed to tell me the whole truth.
Liz Poret-Christ (21m 2s):
I think just as lay people are hesitant and terrified to have these kind of conversations, I can’t imagine as a physician having to share that kind of news would be any easier, right? So yeah, we applaud Dr. Weiss because he helped you move forward in a way that you could live with and the way that Izzy could make decisions and live with as well. So yeah, we are grateful to you for sharing your story and spending some time with us. I am a better person for having met you. I understand myself better for having read your letters and I’m really glad we’re friends. How can someone get in touch with you if they need you?
Molly Mattocks (21m 45s):
They can find me on Instagram. I change it from letters to lessons on Living after Loss, but they’re all still out there, so that’s probably the easiest way. Or they can go to my coaching page, Molly Mattocks coaching.com.
Liz Poret-Christ (21m 57s):
Great. I encourage you all to visit Molly Mattocks coaching.com or her page on Instagram. Her tagline says, changing Death one Life at a Time. And I believe that the conversations that Molly’s willing to have and the grace in which she conducts them will help others learn how to carry their grief. And I’m so happy that you’ll continue on this journey, having these Difficult Conversations and helping others and joining us on this show. We will list all of Molly’s contact information in the show notes so you don’t have to worry if you’re driving and wanna write it down, we will do that for you. If you would like to reach Dr. Orsini or myself, please contact us at the Orsini Way.com.
Liz Poret-Christ (22m 38s):
We would love to hear from you. You can find this and all other episodes on your favorite podcast platform. We’re basically on them all. And until next time, we will see you soon on Difficult Conversations: Lessons I learned as an ICU Physician, even though I am not the ICU physician. Thanks for joining us, Molly.
Molly Mattocks (22m 58s):
Thanks.
Announcer (22m 58s):
If you enjoyed this podcast, please hit the subscribe button and leave a comment and review. To contact Dr. Orsini and his team or to suggest guests for future podcasts, visit us at the Orsini Way.Com. The comments and opinions of the interviewer and guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and beliefs of their present and past employers or institutions.
